Advice on PCN action...

[vj]

Hey there  - i was caught up in this PCN money marking scam – and i’m proper fuming.  I was issued a PCN when the Pay and Display sign was clearly vandalised - Baker St/Kenrick Place.  I took two pictures and presented City of Westminster with a formal challenge.

Basically, what i did was hold off paying until the sign was cleaned then bought my ticket....only too be flipping issued a PCN a short while before me paying.  I challenged a CEO who was around at the time and he advised i appeal and it would be fine – so i did.  CEO also told me that i have four hours to pay after the sign has been cleaned, which i now think was a lie to get me to piss off - right wanker..!

Anyway - what i got back quiet promptly was – “Your challenge against this PCN has been rejected because i could of moved to another bay...” Your sincerely,  Mr Keith Goad – WT flying F??!    I am in a quandary now to challenge this further, or just suck it up and pay the tossers.  They have given me a further 14 days to pay

What do you guys advise ..?  I now feel officially part of this campaign...  Any input appreciated - A very disgruntled motorist...

[upyourschalkley]

Hi vj, welcome.

I'd take it all the way to PATAS. As far as I know it's not illegal to park in the bay if it has been vandalised, moving to another bay doesn't matter.

See what other people say on this site but there's a letter from Gonad somewhere that explains they can't enforce a vandalised (Rathboned) bay.

[ldn1702]

Sorry, but you have absolutely no obligation whatsoever to park in a different bay! Nowhere on the WCC website does it say that there are bays in the borough which are not to be used and nowhere does it say on their website that when signs are vandalised, you have to move to another bay.

This is ridiculous and an attempt of money grabber Kevin Goad to make you pay. Appeal again, again and again until they cancel it. I believe they'll give you a further 14 days every time if they don't cancel it, and if they carry on resisting, take the case to PATAS. I'm sure many other forum users here will be able to advise you better than me, so come back and check this thread regularly.

By no means should you pay this PCN. If you fight hard, they'll cancel it. Take them to county court if need be. You are right, they're wrong.

[vespa]

How can they tell the guy to move to another bay? He was parking perfectly legally in the bay, which their signs were no clearly showing the details of... they will try anything to get the money huh!

Take this all the way to PATAS and get a judgement.

We have one letter that clearly shows that if the signs are obliterated PCN and bay is not enforceable.. so what is all this tosh now from Kevin "Gonad" Goad?

Or should he just reply and say.. fuck you, what are you trying? They have no power to push people around like this, infuriates me.

Time to get a crack team of Greeks together to come take em down, they won't know what hit em! Surely this is against freedom of movement a basic human right.

[torytax]

Hi VJ welcome to the forum, and the fight by the sound of it.


I think the CEO that said you could parking in a bay for only four hours after it was cleaned is confused with the car bays, which have a maximum stay of only four hours. Whereas the bike bays is a whole day stay, so they should not be able to charge until the following day after a sign has been cleaned.

You don't say whether you have done the first informal appeal, or the second formal appeal. Both can be done by using the form on Westminster's website including uploading your photographic evidence.

If you have only done the first informal appeal you may want to provide them with a copy of this earlier letter from Mr Goad



i hope you do have the time to take it too PATAS, but I strongly suspect the Westminster will pull out of defending the case just before the PATAS appeal date.

However the rejection letter you have already is useful to the noTo lawyers who are collecting all the evidence they can at the moment so please email your rejection letter to NoTo.

If you do still have the formal appeal to go with Westminster you might want to tell them this is clearly a case of harassment and looks like Mr Goad is dishonestly trying to enrich the Council.

You can also email Kevin Goad as he is the boss of the parking department

KGoad@westminster.gov.uk

He is always delighted to hear about people experiences with his parking department, at least then when he is standing in court he cannot say he wasn't aware, we just have to make him accountable.

[Legolas]

Fight this. I'm no expert but I would say you have a cast iron case.

All of Westminster's correspondence will threaten or imply all sorts of nasties in order to get you to throw in the towel. There'll be talk of bailliffs, speedy payment discounts etc. etc. Ignore it all. Take it to PATAS and you will almost certainly win - although Westminster will almost certainly throw in the towel before your hearing.

A few years ago myself and four other colleagues had our cars towed and were fined £270. We all appealed, jumped through a few hoops and one by one Westminster threw the cases citing 'proceedural errors' except for one which they took all the way to PATAS. I represented the lady in question and the outcome was that PATAS slated Westminster for not answering my questions properly and not using their own common sense and sense of justice in trying to nail just one of us when all of our cases were identical. I think she had her refund within a few days.

A really good website for legal stuff is pepipoo.com. I know some guys here have had their differences with one or two of their number, but there are some clever bods there with some good advice.

Good luck.

[bigdave]

To the best of my knowleadge they can only tell you that you should have found antoher bay to park in if it was on suspension which from the attached photos it dosn't not appear it was. Bays on suspension have a yellow plastic board zip tied to them with the hours of suspension writen on by hand.

For the record I belive that they also have to give fair warning a bay will be suspended by displaying the notice for a few days ahead atleast.

I'd take it to PATAs myself, odds are Westminster will drop it before PATAs make a ruleing however WCC will always try to put the frightners on you to stop you making an appeal so they get your cash.

A quick question though was the warden who told you the 4 hours after cleaning thing the same one who issued you the ticket. If so then even though you didn't get his sholder numbers (I'm assuming you didn't) you can ID him as Westminster will know who issued the ticiket so in addtion to the PATAs case (although I'd include that as part of your appeal) I'd file a complaint with both NSL & Westminster over the missleading information that was supplied to you by this warden giving the ticket number so they can ID him/her.

If the CEO who told you this was just one who was walking by at the time though then you're unlikely to be able to bring disaplinary action against them directly without their sholder number. However I'd file the complaint anyway giving the location, time of day, date & a discription of them. As they will know who was on shift which narrows it down, the discription will hopefully narrow it down a bit more and then it depends how much GPS data they store but if the CEO issued a ticket close to when it happened the date, time and location of that ticket will be on record and put them in the area.

Just make it all as big a headache as you can!

[templar]

Without a shadow of a doubt, take this to PATAS. You have good, clear cut evidence that you were in the right, and there isn't a damn thing they can do about it.

I had a case go to PATAS 8 days ago. I was caught by another Council in a Bus Lane on a Bank Holiday. They had pictures of me, going on my merry way, in this Bus Lane. I had absolutely no excuse as to why I was in there (I didn't realise that Bank Holidays still counted), but I fought it simply because I knew the odds of them folding before the PATAS hearing were high. I found a dozen fairly feeble procedural errors by the council (One sign was obscured by a set of lights for example) and took a load of pictures.

On the day, they didn't bother to show up. They didn't bother to send in any evidence. In fact, they didn't even bother sending in the original PCN. PATAS phoned me up at lunchtime (I was due in at 6.45) and told me not to bother, that the case would almost certainly go my way. Which - of course - it did.

The better thing about PATAS is that the failure rate of WCC there is - get this - 90%! So 9 out of every 10 WCC PATAS appeals go the way of the driver/rider. Frankly, I've half a mind to never pay in WCC again, and just appeal, because their signs and lines are so bad.

It's dead simple VJ. Make your formal objection, and if/when they refuse it, demand the PATAS paperwork. WCC may fold even then. But if you have pictures of your bike in the upgraded bay, then you've won, and they know it.

[ldn1702]

Just for the record, as I have never done it, what do you need to do to take a case to PATAS?

[templar]

Once they have rejected your formal appeal they have to point out that you have the right to take it to PATAS, and include the relevant paperwork as well. It's pretty much a form that is two sides of A4, you have to fill in your details, including reasons for objection, sign it and send it off. They will schedule a hearing (you can either attend, as I chose to, or be informed of the decision by post), and you can send in any evidence you like up until about a week before.

The council MUST a) send you the PATAS form (Failure to do so means they basically lose the case there and then), b) send you their evidence no less than 3 days before the hearing (although I've heard 7 as well) and c) supply signed documents from the officer concerned that all the info was indeed correct. I've heard that for CCTV offences (Like my bus lane fine) they are duty bound to send the CCTV operator if you request it, and I think the same might be said for the CEO concerned. This, of course, they are highly unlikely to do, because the cost of sending one, and the subsequent loss in revenue would be worth more than the fine you would pay IF you lost the case.

[ldn1702]

Thanks Templar, very useful. But when you first appeal, I don't think they send you the PATAS form with their reply, do they? Do you have to request it in case they reject your appeal? Or perhaps, in your first appeal, you say something like "if you decide to reject this appeal, please enclose the PATAS form in your reply as I intend to take the case to them"?

[templar]

You get two appeals - informal and formal. Personally, I didn't really get either from Barnet, because they were so slow in getting me stuff like TMOs and pictures etc, but that is what you get.

It might be wise to mention in your Formal appeal (Which is the only one they are obliged to listen to) that you intend to take it all the way to PATAS. They might decide that it isn't worth chasing, and quit then and there, because you obviously know your rights (as we know, these guys prey on people who don't know their rights).

They will never send you a PATAS form after your first, informal appeal. Because you have a second, official appeal about to happen. I THINK (but don't quote me) they have to mention your right to a PATAS appeal after rejecting the formal appeal, and include the paperwork with that latter. BArnet certainly did for me (Though I had pointed out long before that I would fight this all the way to PATAS.)

[DastardlyDick]

Most (especially WCC) Councils automatically reject the first (informal) appeal & make you wait until you get the "Notice to Owner" before issuing you with the PATAS paperwork.
Obviously, they hope that you'll pay up without a fight and, unfortunatly, a lot of people do because they think that they've exhausted the process and (surprise, surprise) the Councils don't exactly go out of their way to inform them.     

[Tweedskin]

He tells you you could have moved. You tell him he could have cleaned the sign before you got there. Fuck em.

[ldn1702]

Well I remember years ago, I had a PCN with my car (yes I had a car at that time!). I appealed it, it got rejected, then wrote back, got rejected, wrote again and the whole thing ended up in county court. Who wan? ME ME and ME!!!!!

[woodstock521]

Did you manage to pay after the sign was cleaned? Or was the sign not cleaned before you got the ticket?

Either way, take it all the way to PATAS. They threaten you with everything. increased fines, sending 'the boys' round, ignore it all. and keep EVERYTHING they send you, emails, paperwork the lot....

[Ogri]

They're saying you should have moved to another bay.

The bays around Baker St (and the nearby one in Dorset St especially) are packed solid from 8am onwards. Make sure you include that information in your challenge. My brother works in Dorset St, if necessary I can get him to write a letter stating whether or not the bay there was full all day. I'd need the date and time of the issuing of the fine.

Don't give up on this - it's a stone-cold win for you if you perservere.

[vj]

Hi all – Wow...sweet info being generate here – everyone has a valid point.  I had to pop open a can of beer to read through all the posts 

Righty-o -- To answer a few Q’s...This is my first claim via post/online to WCC – i did both cause i was not sure if it went through online.

Bigdave – Different CEO guy i believe - i asked the first fucker i saw close by.  He did say that the bay i was in was another officers patrol.  Even though he was only like meters away from my bike.  To be honest, i knew he could do nothing once a PCN has been issued... just fob me off and sting the next poor bastard.  I didn’t get his name/number either 

Templat – I do not have a pic of my bike in the bay at the time, i just didn’t think it was necessary.  I only have the two pics attached.

Woodstock521 – i can’t vouch if i had the PCN before or after the sign was cleaned.  I bought my weekly ticket once i saw the sign was readable around 1:40pm.  I parked my bike around 9am, and just about found parking ...

I shall be filing another appeal shortly, with all the info provided above, along with a printout of the original response torytax’s posted.

Cheers everyone for all the advice, much much appreciated – vj

[ldn1702]

Please keep us posted on the progress, vj, and good luck!

[bigdave]

if all else fails don't forget that Westminster have said they will wave a "first offence" for non-payment. I have a copy of an email they sent to one of our followers somewhere if you also want to include that. The only reason I'd be tempted not to use that is because the weasels will use it as an out so the reason for canceling it dosn't show us as they were wrong.