Advice on PCN action...

[templar]

Appeal. Hell, I appealed a bus lane ticket when I was clearly in the wrong, and I won! If nothing else, consider this: PATAS costs WCC money. FOIs cost WCC money. Making them write letters to you costs WCC money.

You really should take a picture of the bay as a whole in future, so you can point to your bike and say "There you go, that's proof that my bike was parked in a bay where the sign was upgraded". But not having that doesn't mean you can't appeal. It costs you nothing, buggers WCC around (In my mind they should work for their coin, like you and I do!) and actually stands a good chance of winning, or at least WCC either buggering up the paperwork, or ignoring it altogether.

Whether or not you had the PCN before or after the sign was cleaned makes no difference: You parked there when it was buggered, you park for free. Just because WCC aren't looking after their signs properly doesn't mean your work day should be buggered up having to check every 7 seconds. Also, with bays being so busy you wouldn't have been able to find another bay nearby with spaces.

It's worth putting an FOI request in to find out when the sign was replaced. use the whatdotheyknow website, it's free and easy, and they have reply within 30 days. Also, request the images of your bike in the bay - the CEOs will have taken pictures, and you are entitled to see the "proof" you were parked illegally. And it will cost them money to get them and send them to you, and might be another reason they decide "we can't be arsed to work this hard for a measly £60".

If you like, and it is your first PCN, then go the way of "You said you'd cancel all first PCNs", but it may not wash now. Failing that, I'll have a wee peek around to find out the exact rules that they broke by having an upgraded sign, and just quote them at WCC. You'll win, I can (almost) guarantee it!

[vespa]

Yeh you always have that get out clause which they MUST adhere to, they bloody suggested it, cause of their admittance that the system was flawed.

But if you can go down the first defence route, instead of the second, and if you win, make sure you get all your compensation back from Westminster, I know they actually have compulsory compensation.. for example every letter they sent you demanding anything is worth a tenner a go... and there are other increments for other situations.. this is so that you will not take them to court for harassment.

[Ogri]

if all else fails don't forget that Westminster have said they will wave a "first offence" for non-payment. I have a copy of an email they sent to one of our followers somewhere if you also want to include that. The only reason I'd be tempted not to use that is because the weasels will use it as an out so the reason for canceling it dosn't show us as they were wrong.

Surely the fine would have been cancelled by Goad in the first letter VJ received, if it was his first offence. It would have read something like: " We reject your appeal that the sign was illegible but we are cancelling the fine as this was your first offence."
If WCC could prove that the sign was cleaned before 9am (when VJ parked) then PATAS would probably uphold WCC's fine, if not, then WCC haven't got a chance.

[woodstock521]

The fact that a weekly charge was paid as soon as the information was made clear to vj at 1.40, at the least shows 'goodwill'... although the pcn had already been issued. I only asked because if you had paid after discovering the payment details but before the pcn, then that outright makes it an invalid ticket.....

Good luck with it, and keep us posted!

[bigdave]

Surely the fine would have been cancelled by Goad in the first letter VJ received, if it was his first offence.

They give you an out that you haven't asked for. By that logic when they reduced the rates they would have automatically sent out refunds to everyone with eligable permits and not waited for them to start demanding them...

[Legolas]

One other thing to bear in mind is, from what I've observed (though I'm no expert) when first appealing to WCC it is up to you to prove your innocence and not them to prove your guilt. Once it goes as far as PATAS it seems to switch over and PATAS will not rule against you if Westminster can't prove that you did commit the offence, that all the signs were 100% legal, that every box on the paperwork was ticked etc. etc.

I'm not saying PATAS will be smiling sweetly and trying to get you off - like all beaurocrats they want a quick, easy resolution. But every detail you give them that challenges the validity of the PCN MUST be explained and accounted for to PATAS by WCC. They hate it and are not actually very good at it when trained legal eyes like those of PATAS are watching, which is why so few cases get to PATAS and even fewer are won by WCC.

Like most PATAS hearings, WCC didn't even bother to turn up at the one I attended.

WCC are parasites, nothing more. Show them a thick skin and they'll slope off and look for a softer target.

And these are the people who are supposed to be supporting and facilitating the day to day running of honest people's lives.

We may be ahead of the third world in terms of effective democracy and governance - but as I've learnt from this campaign, it's not by much.

 

[chairman]

VJ

Could you give me an updated status of your position with WCC. Email me directly at chairman@notobikeparkingtax.com

On first glance, if the sign instructing you that payment were due was illegible, cannot be disputed by WCC by claiming you should have moved to another bay since that would assume that the whole bay is deemed "suspended".

In simple terms, had you not been aware that the bay was chargeable, and there was no legible sign saying that a levy was due, you must be entitled to park there without penalty, since there is no instruction to pay.

They are clearly incensed by their inability to enforce PCN's where the sign is defaced, but to resort to using the old chestnut that used to apply to "out of order" parking meters is not only a sign of desperation, but totally inappropriate.

I would advise in the first instance to inform them that you will challenge at PATAS, and then ask them the following:-
1) to clarify on what legal grounds they argue that an illegible sign would negate your using of the bay
2) to explain their blatant lack of consistency in rejecting your appeal whilst upholding others under exactly the same circumstances
3) to explain categorically how a visitor to London, who would therefore be highly likely to be ignorant to the fact that a levy was due, could be expected to pay when there is no legible indication as such

and then crucially
4) is the opinion regarding your "moving to another bay" that of the Council OR of the individual themselves

This 4th point is crucial since you could qualify by adding that you will take legal advice as to pursuing a private claim either the Council under the Protection from Harassment Act, or the actual individual for attempting to extort funds should your claim at PATAS prove successful.

Would be very interesting to see how they react to that.

Best

Warren

[ldn1702]

VJ

Could you give me an updated status of your position with WCC. Email me directly at chairman@notobikeparkingtax.com

Can we also be kept posted on here please.

[Legolas]

It's no coincidence that you're the guv'nor of this campaign Warren.

Your 'point 4' is inspired!
I'm almost tempted to deliberately get a PCN just so I can try it!

[vj]

Hi all – Bloody hell... top notch info everyone!!   Mr Chairman - I have included all four of your points in my second letter of appeal to WCC, which is planned for post tomorrow AM.  I have somehow incorporated a little bit of everyone’s post into my second appeal.

Let wait and see the outcome...

Will keep everyone in the loop...

Take it easy everyone, vj

[vj]

We came, we saw, we kicked ass!  Outcome was in my favor - PCN has been rescinded

The pass fortnight I had another surprise.   I was greeted with an £80 Notice to Owner letter, and just assumed it has something to do with my existing appeal – like F was it.  I was on the blower to their helpdesk the next morning, asking them if they had received my appeal letter dated 14/02/2010, and why have I also been issued a NtO when I am in an appeal process.

Man was I shocked when she told us that this is a completely different PCN.  She assumed I was guilty – the flipping cheek!! – and was very adamant that I was in the wrong, and I must of been aware of this!  I explained – NO, this is the first i have been made aware of this.  I received an NtO through the post, which I assumed was my existing appeal case!  

I was stumped, how the hell did I get another PCN…?!  It turned out that my telephone payment on that particular day went through, yet i was still issued a PCN @ 9.23am.  Someone must off pulled the PCN off my bike during the day, thus me not being aware until a NtO letter arrived at my doorstep.

Well after a heated 28 mins on the blower to WCC, she finally agreed that sometimes the owner is not aware that he/she has a PCN until the NtO is sent to the address, which was in my case.  She advised I write to WCC, and ask them to first “reset my fine back to £40” and also provide a bank statement to show proof off payment - which i did.  

Upon checking my statement online, whilst on the phone to WCC, I could see a 'post date' for the day - 22/01 [date of contravention], but no ‘transaction date’.  The last paragraph of my letter went like this…

“””Please advice on the accuracy of your telephone payment systems?  How many other times has your system failed to register payment..?  As with any technology, system hiccups do occur and usually at the expense of the genuine taxpayer!
Sincerely”””

Tossers cancelled the PCN without any hesitation    So to sum up – I have had Two PCN’s and an NtO cancelled, I had to prove WCC were in the wrong… They lost, f-em... losers...

I would just like to say another massive, massive thank you to all that supported me on this, my awareness and grown 10 fold with regards to PCN’s / NtO’s, policies, procedures and the like.  This is all because of the top draw members of this forum!!  Scans will be up shortly to show LDN that this campaign is really really fighting for!!

All the best now,  VJ – and a very happy rider…

[vj]

Letters from Mr. Goad et al...

[bigdave]

congrats!  

feel free to join us this evening to thank them for their lack of assistance in resolving your long drawn out situation.

[Ogri]

Nice one VJ - I'm delighted for you!
 

[edenphil]

Yayy, well done VJ.  I got a PCN cancelled by Southwark council last year, nice feeling isnt it?  
Couldnt have done it without the help of the Forum.

[torytax]

Well done for sticking with it VJ.

I am concerned by the wording that Kevin Goad has used, telling you that if you are unable to make payment you must find another bay. I think he's wrong there, and it is up the council to ensure that their signs are clean and legible at all times, and not for you to hunt around for a suitable bay. This is why CEO's cannot go and photograph a sign from a different bay.

[woodstock521]

If it was practical to find another bay, everyone would park in the next borough.... what plebs....

[themanwithaplan]

Nice one for getting your parking tickets cancelled! I love that feeling 

I say everyone should always appeal PCNs (even if you were in the wrong) as it's amazing how many will end up getting cancelled. This applies to all boroughs and to car drivers too. I can't remember the last time I actually paid a parking ticket.

[vj]

Well done for sticking with it VJ.

I am concerned by the wording that Kevin Goad has used, telling you that if you are unable to make payment you must find another bay. I think he's wrong there, and it is up the council to ensure that their signs are clean and legible at all times, and not for you to hunt around for a suitable bay. This is why CEO's cannot go and photograph a sign from a different bay.

I was a little concerned too with regards to WCC re-iterating that if I cannot pay for parking at the time, then I would have to find another bay…  Makes me wonder, if other motorists will be able to appeal against a PCN due to an illegible Pay & Display post..?

Sorry guys I could not make the rally the other night, I could not get off from work…I shall try to make it  next time around, and prolly round up a few bikers myself to join us along the way  ?

Thanks again chaps, all the best now…

[Bandit]

Result VJ!
Fuck 'em, everyone should protest everything. Then, when revenue plummets as a result of these dodgy tickets, they'll up the standards with their arsehole CEOs and whatever corporation of shysters employs them.

Alright, it didn't happen till now, but we live in hope!